The Judy Gene

Thursday, January 18, 2007 by












One of the things about having a blog with a mission statement no more complicated than "We're gay. We judge. That's what we do." means that we have a fairly wide open set of topics to discuss. It also means an endless supply of suggestions from readers - for which we are entirely grateful, by the way. One that keeps coming up (presumably because we're walking cliches) is "When are you two bitches going to get to Judy?"

Judy.

Here's the thing: While we recognize her enormous talent as an entertainer (it'd be damn near impossible not to) and we also recognize her importance as a cultural figure to the gay community, we, neither of us, have the Judy gene. Shocking, we know.

Seriously, we're right on the cusp of the generational divide in the gay community when it comes to Judy. A couple years younger than us and they have no time for her except as the punchline to a joke; a couple years older than us and you're getting into Blessed-Virgin-Mary-shrine territory. We're old enough to appreciate the cultural effect she's had amongst our brethren but young enough to question why such a mess would ever be held up as something to admire.

Yes, we've seen the movies and heard the recordings and we're prepared to say that not only was her talent unprecedented but that she's clearly one of the top vocalists of the 20th century and probably the top female vocalist, full stop. But honeys, we literally cannot sit still watching her. She's just too agitating and way too much of an emotional investment.

Of course, that's exactly what her acolytes would say is so captivating about her and maybe they're right. Maybe it's impossible to separate Judy the performer from Judy the Hot Mess. Maybe her fragility and pain are what raises her above other people with similar talents.

Of course, this forces the question: who has similar talents to Judy Garland? She really was singular, kittens. A vibrato that could demolish buildings packed into a tiny little drug-addicted body, topped off with a face which, while not exactly pretty, was nonetheless riveting because every single fleeting moment of pain registered gloriously on it. When you watch her perform - especially on stage - you can see how hard she's working. Like she's digging ditches or something. Other performers adopted a more polished persona and made it look effortless but dammit, Judy was going to let you know that this was literally killing her so you bastards better love her for it.

And from that angle, yeah we can see it. She's certainly something to behold and even admire on some strange level. Bottom line though, she was a walking disaster almost her entire life and while her legion of biographers have more than made the point that most of that wasn't her fault, "talented victim" is just not something we respond to when it comes to our icons. We're the Madonna generation. Sure, she can't hold a candle to Miss Garland in the talent sweepstakes, but she was always in control of herself and her career. Or at least, she did a damn good job of promoting that image.

And that's probably the divide right there. Judy is a classic pre-feminism female figure and Madonna is a classic post-feminism figure. Since the rise of feminism was of a piece with the rise of gay rights, it would seem to make sense that gay men who grew up post-feminism (like us) would discard earlier victimized female gay icons for more empowered, less tragic ones. Or maybe we're talking out our asses. Certainly, we've fallen into the trap that imposes more relevance and meaning on to poor Judy's life than she ever probably wanted.

We feel like we're being sacrilegious here. Seriously. Like we're pissing on a picture of Mother Theresa or something. Still, it feels kind of liberating to say it. We just don't like Judy. We tried, but she's just not for us.

Although we still sing The Trolley Song whenever we're doing housework.

69 comments:

James Derek Dwyer said...

I totally agree with you guys. Whether you like it or not, we are in the age of Madonna. (I happen to like her, warts and all) Judy Garland always struck me as someone too real, too emotionally honest to be a star and therefore, constantly combusting under the pressure. I dont think they let people like Judy rise to the top anymore. Too much. Way too much going on. Nowadays media stars need a sheen, a kind of Mariah Carey dopey-ness to get through to the mass audience. Witness the rise of trifles like Britney Spears, not to mention total voids like Paris Hilton. I will be interesting to see who joins Garland and Madonna in that special pantheon. I dont see anyone remotely approaching their league currently...

jinxy said...

The thought of you two with feather dusters in your hands, singing the trolley song has truly made my day.

PasadenaGuy1965 said...

As usual, I feel you guys are spot on. Judy Garland was an amzing talent, but she was so overwhelmingly needy. I think those of us that are part of the post-Stonewall / post-feminist generation that came of age in the late 1970's and early 1980's are more drawn to performers that have taken control of their destiny both personally and professionally, such as Madonna or Cher. Judy was unable to do that, perhaps due to her own demons. So count me in on missing the "Judy Gene" (and also the Barbra and Liza genes but that is another post).

Bill said...

I don't quite have the gene, but I have strong Judy tendencies...

I LOVE the old MGM musicals. She was one of a kind. I respect the talent & enjoy a lot of her movies (esp. the older ones made in her teens and early 20's before she really fell apart).

I have a lot of sympathy for her. The studio had her hooked on uppers & downers by the time she was 16 - that would be tough enough to shake in today's rehab culture, but back then..

Having defended her, I can also say that I don't hold her up as some huge icon and never got the complete worship of her by the older gays. But I'm the same age as you guys, T&L, so I agree with the pre-post feminism thing. We did grow up on the cusp of the end of Judy worship.

She was too much work, but the tapes of her TV show are great. Great guests, great songs. I wish the networks were putting something like it on the air today.

AND have you seen her basically play herself in "I Could Go On Singing." She plays Jenny Bowman, a world famous singer who is also needy, addicted and a complete mess.

It's worth the whole darned cheesy movie for Judy's "I don't care if they're fasting" speech to (Miss) Dirk Bogarde when she's refusing to play a gig after an all night bender ("don't ever drink the martinis...they're half gasoline"). She's acting, but she's acting her own story. It's bizarre and wonderful and one of my favorite movie speeches.

redheadgirl said...

Judy Garland was a train wreck with some great pipes. I never understood the fuss either. I think she's painful to watch. Madonna's only talent is self promotion. And I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but to put Madonna and feminism in the same sentence is not right. If that is feminism, please shelter me.

Anonymous said...

Just listening to her sing, with out any visuals or back-story drama, is the best way to enjoy Judy.
For me, hearing her sing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" gives me chills everytime: nobody else can touch that song.

TLo said...

Not joking at all, redheadgirl. There wouldn't be a Madonna without feminism.

Suzanne said...

With what I do for a living, 99.999% of the men in my life are gay. Not one of them has a thing for Judy. I almost thought for a while it was a gay urban legend.

Anonymous said...

TRUST ME Judy is not a "gay urban legend" I worked with a guy that worshipped her. She was his wallpaper for the work computer (which he would talk to) he dressed and performed as her, had shrines built to her in his home so yeah the Goddess Judy thing lives. I don't have the gene but can respect her for what she was at the times. I think it would be interesting to see how someone with her talent and beauty would be taken today and how she would have marketed herself.
That said, all gay men can't forget that Judy (more appropriatly her death) has been credited with helping to spark the Stonewall riots that gave the gay rights movement such national attention. Gene or not, we do owe her some thanks for that.

LauraandMichael said...

PRGayBoys:
"She's just too agitating and way too much of an emotional investment."
************
Amen. No denying her out-of-this-world talent but watching her was too much.

Mike Douglas (remember him?) used to have Judy and Liza on his talk show. She was always funny but it was so exhausting to watch her -- and I was tweener at the time!

Pre-feminism, twisted by the studio heads, whatever. I think everyone has childhood baggage that could be used to blame the mistakes you make as an adult. At some point (say 18 years?) you need to take responsibility for your own actions.

I'm not naive and I'm very much aware of the addictive clutch of drugs or alcohol. But come on, get help, get over it, and move on!!! We all only have one life -- live it!

brilliant said...

redheaded girl said..."Judy Garland was a train wreck with some great pipes."

That made me think of Elvis. I guess he's to a lot of straight Southerners what Judy is to the older gays. I just never got it.

As for Madonna being a feminist icon, she totally is. You may not like what she's done in the past, present or future but I think you gotta give her enormous amounts of credit for owning it. She doesn't apologize or backpedal or play the victimization card. That is what real feminism should be all about. You make choices and you own them, whether they end up being right or wrong.

Vera said...

You know what I don't understand? Why isn't Nina Simone a gay icon? Unless she is and none of my queers ever told me. Maybe she's a secret gay icon that you can't tell breeders about. If that is the case, I would appreicate some courageous homo breaking the chain of silence.

mjude said...

hmmm i guess you give your age away if you adore judy? i love both judy & madonna being the straight girl that i am. but i wonder dear boyfriends where does marilyn fall into this catagory?

Lisette said...

OMG! you've gone all brainiac on us. You do of course realize that there is a Ph.D. level American Studies thesis in this little post.

Red Seven said...

I'm younger than you, and still a Judy fanatic. It started with my love of all things Liza -- who is the same kind of performer. I saw Liza at her prime, and she was WORKING really HARD to give me a good show, and I guess I really appreciated it.

I wrote something on my blog way back in '04 or '05 about why gay men love divas, and here's my theory: Divas, while not sexually attractive to most gay men, are heroes to us because they prove to the world that you don't need to be "butch" in order to be strong. Cher, Madonna, Christina, Bette Davis, Joan Crawford -- they all sort of fit this category. Judy is something else altogether; a little more fragile on the outside, but must have had an enormous reservoir of inner strength in order to keep on coming back every time life seemed to knock her down. And according to Liza, really funny -- always, even when life was cruel.

Plus, there's that voice -- which you guys described way better than I could.

Anonymous said...

"Unless she is and none of my queers ever told me."
I am sure that you didn't intend it to be but I have to say I just find that sentence and your use of the word queer to be offensive. I know it is cute when people talk about "their gays" but this is too much.

Red Seven said...

Oh, and ... to Vera's point. Nina Simone may not be an official GAY ICON, but she's a personal icon of mine, as is Ella Fitzgerald -- for my money, the best singer of the 20th century.

thombeau said...

The Judy gene is definitely generational. As I am around your age, I feel much the same way about the whole Garland thing. I can appreciate her, but really...let's move on, shall we? Gays who primarily identify with the victim mentality may be drawn to her, or those who feel compelled to conform to tradition (even of a sub-cultural kind), but our history does not have to be our inheritance.

The gay liberation and women's liberation movements are so closely intertwined because of aspects of the divine feminine that are integral to both parties. As we have become more empowered, our choice of "role models" has become more empowering. So one can honor the past without reliving it.

Now, what about LIZA???

chicksinger said...

So if we've got a pre-feminism and post-feminism divide here roughly delineated by Stonewall, then when was just plain ol' feminism the order of the day? I'm being snarky because, kittens, feminism has never truly gone away. It's just been relegated to lesbian culture by most mainstream (straight) women because the younger sorts don't want to be associated with strident bra-burners even though they take for granted most of what the 2nd Wave got us. Not to mention the 1st Wave in the early 20th century. Sorry to be a killjoy, but it burns me up, as a woman brought up by feminist parents in the 70s and 80s, to have people refer to a post-feminist era. I hope I live long enough to see one, but this ain't it.

And if Madonna is inextricably linked to current feminism, then call me Phyllis Schlafly. Trust me, you can be a feminist and still call bullshit on pretty much everything Madonna has claimed since 1983.

Re: Judy, I love her. Never quite got the gay fascination with her (nor with Madonna), but I love her for her talent and her ability to bare all emotionally, and I feel sorry for how those qualities led to such an early demise.

You can't attribute her inability to control her life solely to the era in which she lived. She had plenty of contemporaries who were their own women, and unfortunately she's been followed by female entertainers just as unable to control their lives as she. So I can understand that she's considered 'old-fashioned' when considering gay icons, but looking at it from my side of the gay/straight fence, it seems like more of a Stonewall issue than a Gloria Steinem one.

TLo said...

chicksinger, "post-feminism," at least as we're using it here, refers to a period after the introduction of feminism into the mainstream, not necessarily after feminism is "over" or something.

BigAssBelle said...

as a reformed mess, still given at times to messiness, i have to say that control is vastly overrated.

living on the edge is something i miss, desperately at times. being good, a citizen, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

i raise a cup of coffee (heavy sigh) to messes everywhere, reformed and otherwise, miss judy garland included.

The Scarlett said...

Love the imagery of you singing the Trolley Song. Surrender, Dorothy!

I don't get her but I'm really glad some do. Girl can emote up a storm. Oh, and she made Kay Thompson the godmother of Liza - how fabulous is that?

Carls said...

I think there is something beautiful in Judy's vulnerability. I still almost cry every time I hear her sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow during her Live at Carnegie Hall Concert. In that single voice crack, I can hear years of pleading for love. (Perhaps it is my own vulnerability speaking here and I just hear what it is I want) Perhaps there are many that adore her because there are many people out there (espcially gay men)who understand what it feels like to constantly search for love and acceptance. Sorry, that may have gotten a bit deep.

personette said...

I'm sad to say I think you may indeed be talking out of your asses here. I don't buy the cultural divide or the rise of feminism stuff. Judy Garland was a great performer - and identification with her pain and struggle made her dear to the gay community. (And let's be honest, the Wizard of Oz connection doesn't hurt).

I'm 32 and was never into showtunes or any of the "gay stuff" and was surprised one day to find myself drawn to a weird recording of her voice - and then to her body of work. Why? I have no idea. Her fragility perhaps. But - what makes any woman a gay icon? What compels to hold anyone at all in high regard? Why do certain women magically and effortlessly ascend Mt. Gay to a position of prominence? (There's a reason Paris Hilton and Tori Spelling aren't gay icons).

I don't believe you can divide gay men into two camps (judy, non judy). I think you have a spectrum to choose from - and every gay man fits SOMEWHERE on it: Judy, Liza, Cher, Dolly, Bette (midler), even julie Andrews and Karen Carpenter.

Quiz every gay man - even the ones who opt out of the judy gene category - and you will certainly find IN ALL OF THEM a nervous, giggly, reluctant passion for one member of the pantheon. Which member you choose depends, I believe, on your "gay story": were you accepted; was your family understanding; did you suffer at the hands of others; were you always strong, out and fabulous?
It's a messy, complicated Venn Diagram.

You certainly can't expect us to believe, Tom and Lorenzo, that your hearts don't hide a secret place for ONE of the great ladies of gaydom? (I think this whole blog debunks that idea). It may not be Judy that you are mysteriously drawn to...

But the way you talk about Judy Garland - saying that the younger generation sees her as a punchline - and the older generation worships her: this is too simplified (and it hurt my feelings).

Judy Garland will not be forgotten 50 years from now, I don't believe. There's just something about her that will - continue. That broken quality. The vibrato you mention. Those fabulous ruby slippers.

When Barbra Streisand (another member of the pantheon) was interviewed on Inside The Actors studio - some queeny young guy stood up and asked her "Why do you think you are so revered in the gay community?" and she responded, quizzically and humbly: "I think it's because... I don't know... because I was different - and I made it? Nobody else looked like me. But I got to do what the others did."

So - maybe you identify with THAT story. Maybe that's the theme of YOUR gay life. And maybe you're a Barbra fan.

But until gay schoolkids stop getting tormented and beaten up - until gay kids grow up without shame and abuse and pain and secrets - I don't think you will find Ms. Garland's charms to be wilted or forgotten.

BigAssBelle said...

personette, i adore you. so i raise a cup of coffee to messes everywhere, judy included, and personette, who is divine indeed.

BigAssBelle said...

oh my stars, now i've looked at your info page personette and i. flat. out. worship. you. you've quoted one of my favorite passages from GWTW. oh pumpkin! a kindred spirit! from sweden!!

macasism said...

Yawn. Judy could sing when she was young but the drugs stole away her voice quite early, imho. I'm much more compelled by another wounded and much more brilliant singer: Billie Holiday.

Allen said...

Thank God! I feel the same way about Streisand and Liza and Ethel and Bette ... I'm sorry, but it's really not my bag at all.

MANY of the older gay crowd frown upon me for not loving their deities. I'm like, "Why should I?"

That's just me, so take it or leave it!

personette said...

Im not from sweden. im from oregon. and i live in LA now.

I'm still kind of upset by they wrote about Judy!

I remember when I was young, and WAY closeted and I was in Circuit City or some nonsense store with my "girlfriend" and I wandered over to a TV where they were playing (I am so embarrassed to admit this) "Barbra Streisand! A Happening In Central Park!" and I stood there, laughing at it and mocking it and all the "fags" who would love it (in a severe case of internalized homohobia). And then - 30 minutes later when i was still standing there - I suddenly realized "OH! THIS is what they are talking about!" Some weird X-men chemical encoding catalyst had taken place inside of me - spurred by her voice. That voice! It made me gay!

Seriously though, I just heard and felt something in her voice - that clear bell rung so strong. And I stumbled out of the store with my girlfriend and she asked me "What's wrong with you? Are you OK?"

I dont know, still to this day, what it is in her voice, or in Judy Garland's voice that "gets to me." Some sort of gay pheremone DNA thing. But something about who they were and what they did - their stories - and the simple sheer sound of their voices - it connected with me somehow. Like Carls said above here "In that single voice crack, I can hear years of pleading for love."

That's what I hear in Judy Garland's voice too. Pain, yearning, sadness. And then, on the other (gay) hand, I hear something like strength or confidence, beating the odds, in barbra streisand's voice. (Wow! I sound like such a fag!)

It's completely obtuse and crazy - but it's real. This connection with these idols - it means something. It does happen.

I know a man who saw Carol Channing in "hello dolly" on broadway and he reported that he was 100% straight at the beginning of the big number, but... "Honey, I was a hardcore homosexual by the time she got to the bottom of those stairs."

personette said...

POSTSCRIPT:

And, T&L, you don't hear us talking junk about your divas, do you?

I mean, the bionic woman and Wonder Woman? With the friggin' invisible plane?

At least Judy had the decency to do herself in before she was co-starring with the friggin' bionic DOG.

TLo said...

Honey, you are taking this way too personally.

LittleKarnak said...

"as is Ella Fitzgerald -- for my money, the best singer of the 20th century."

I'm with you on this statement, red7eric. I am a junkie for Ella, I find her a much more complete vocalist, I even prefer her to Streisand. As a straight female I find this topic very interesting; I have never really understood the worship of Judy and, right or wrong, I thought maybe it was just a "gay thing." Always loved The Wizard of Oz but more for Margaret Hamilton than Judy and the only intriguing thing to me about A Star Is Born was how the print was actually restored. Thanks for posting this thought provoking topic.

william-holden-caulfield said...

I've never understood the cult of Judy.

I recently wondered aloud about this to a gay colleague, and he ascribed it to her "moxie". I remain unsatisfied by this explanation.

Top female vocalist? Ha! Not in the same league as Ella, Dinah Washington, or even The Merm.

And, what's up with all the gay men WITHIN the family? Papa Gumm, Vincent Minelli, Peter Allen, Jack Haley Junior (?), and Mark Gest (!). Atwhay athay uckfay?

Suzanne said...

Personette said
"You certainly can't expect us to believe, Tom and Lorenzo, that your hearts don't hide a secret place for ONE of the great ladies of gaydom? "

Does the name Laura Bennett ring a bell? She may not have received her "great Lady" official papers yet, but last I heard they were in the mail.

personette said...

yes, you're right. Laura Bennett is worship-worthy. I apologize for my rash comments earlier. Some sort of strange gay judy gene kicked in (like the one that triggered stonewall) and I kind of went nuts on here. oops!

Sloguy said...

Thanks boys. I always thought there might be something wrong with me because I wasn't a cult follower. You've nailed it on the head for me.
In other news..."Red Hot Mess" will now make it into my PRGayboys vocabulary...I try & use one your phrases in a meeting once a week to see if anyone is really listening to me.

Anonymous said...

OMG, the Judy queens are PISSED.

anapestic said...

I'm kind of agnostic on Judy (I don't get the whole concept of worshipping cultural icons, really), and I don't think I even know anyone who worships her, but the Judy phenomenon seems to me illustrative of a more pervasive and disturbing trend in gay culture.

I think that she's worshipped in part because she was such a mess. It's the whole fucked-up-but-fabulous concept that appears to have pervaded gay culture back in the day and that continues to a lesser extent now. When, for example, I think of the best known gay essayists (David Sedaris and Augusten Burroughs leap to mind), I think of people who earn their bread from their very messed up lives.

The idea that dysfunction is helpful or even essential to art probably comes from a time when gay culture was a much narrower phenomenon than it is today and when to be gay was necessarily to be oppressed. If you see no way to happiness, then you make a virtue of unhappiness.

I would rather see gay men let all that go as what it means to be gay becomes less and less narrowly defined. I have little patience with people who say that being gay is only a small part of who they are rather than being central to their identity. Sexuality is central to anyone's identity, but it can mean very different things to different people, and it certainly needn't mean dysfunction or worshipping anyone.

Dova65 said...

Like it or not, there is a divide here (whether generational or just personal taste), as evidenced by what a hot-button topic Judy is.

I'm 41, I adored the Wizard of oz growing up, I was aware of and admired Judy's amazing talent, but I never understood the worship of her. Barbra is the icon I have been drawn to. I also am amazed by Ella. And Bette, to a lesser degree. Cher and Madonna-- ick.

I think we all need to be careful when making blanket statements about the gay community's likes and dislikes. We don't want to stereotype ourselves, do we? There are certainly a good many gays out there who loathe and despise all of these "gay icons" because they don't like show tunes or pop music. Maybe they have a penchant for Mahler. Doesn't make them any less gay, any less tasetful, or any less cool.

To each his own.

Cheers to you all-- love this blog.

Linda Merrill said...

I don't agree with the pre- and post- feminist theory. Judy Gardland was a huge talent with low self esteem onto whom drugs were pushed starting at adolesence. If she were 20 today she'd be Britney Spears or Lindsay Lohan. (Not that I'm suggesting that they have the talent she had in her baby toe.) But she would be a tabloid princess heading into rehab. So, I don't think we can say she was harmed by being from a pre-feminist age.

I think Madonna definately benefitted in her career from coming of age in the 70's and 80's where she could put it all out there and people listened. While I don't this she's any more gifted than Britney or Lindsay, she's clearly smarter and understands how to package herself and morph with evolving tastes. She would never have made it in the 30's and 40's and I really believe that 100 years from now, people will know who Judy Garland was, but few will know Madonna.

TLo said...

Hi Linda,

It seems to us that your second paragraph contradicts your first. If Madonna benefitted from coming of age in the '70s and '80s then, by definition, she benefited from feminism and thus, is a post-feminist female cultural figure.

You're correct to compare Judy's messes to Britney and Lindsay but look at how differently they're treated. Judy was ALWAYS considered something of a tragedy by the public. Her appeal lay as much in her victimhood as her talents. To us, that's classic pre-feminism thinking. Lindsay and Britney on the other hand, have been raked over the coals by the public - and deservedly so. In the post-feminist world we live in, we have a lot less sympathy for women who won't take control of their lives.

On another note, we're suprised that this of all topics engendered such discussion but we're pleased as punch that it did. You guys rock.

brian said...

Being part of the younger gays (a mere 21), I have a hard time grasping the Judy obsession, and my first instinct is that it's generational. Being on a college campus with oodles and oodles of young gay men, I have not once heard any Judy love expressed. However, I have heard love for Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, and even Barbara Stanwyck, showing that us young folk aren't entirely oblivious to the past. Like you referenced, I think we prefer our women steely and self-assured than messy and disastrous. That's my best guess at the disconnect, but even that's a pretty flawed attempt.

Linda Merrill said...

OK, T&L, you got me, I did contradict myself... still, I had a point in there somewhere. Judy's problems were hidden by the studio system for much of her career, it was really only after the fact that the general public came to know of the depth of her problems. So, I'm still not convinced about it being a feminist thing. Good topic tho!

Shanghaishrimpo said...

Wow! Another excellent essay! I feel exactly as you do regarding Miss Garland. It was another time, another place.
I remember when I saw Madonna's Blonde Ambition Tour, live, I kept saying to my friend: "What Judy Garland would have given to have this show as her own... To have the control of her career and an artistic vision like Madonna's".
I have always appreciated Miss Garland as an important person in entertainment history -- but, I could tell she was a hot mess when i watched her TV when I was 6 years old!

Dova65 said...

The other distinction to make between Judy and modern-day messes like Britney and Lindsay is this:

Judy was more tragic because she was such a lovely and innocent young movie star and wasn't really pathetic until she was older. Britney and Lindsay are still very young, and were never "beloved" or "innocent" by nature. They took very little time to cross over into "mess territory."

I believe that it was the tragedy of "Dorothy gone bad" that drew many to Judy. I've often wondered why many of us have an infatuation with "Valley of the Dolls"... now it seems obvious.

mike.motaku said...

Girls, please!
I never got the Judy thing, primarily because I got the idea she didn't exactly like the homos. Wash that nonsense right out! Although I will forever cherish a rare recording a friend of mine had of her aborted attempts at an autobiography. Oh my. Bitter, angry, and drunk. What's not to love? Hot mess indeed.

Besides, I grew up in the S/M generation: Streisand/Midler. And I had all Bette's early recordings by heart. So y'all know what side of the fence I came down on.

personette said...

anapestic:

i dont worship judy garland BECAUSE she was screwed up (if that was true I'd be camping outside Courtney Love's house). I love JG because she faced so many obstacles (personal and professional) - because she tried - and I guess because she lost. It all goes back to what Carls said "In that single voice crack, I can hear years of pleading for love."

I don't know - she had this singular talent and the world seemed to conspire against her and she lost. And something about her broken-ness - about trying to overcome her trubs - striving, yearning, blah blah blah - THAT speaks to me. I feel protective of her (obviously).

And c'mon - she's Dorothy.

I mean, whatever - this whole topic is bizarre and I feel like I'm on some sort of weird Jonathan Adler designed soapbox dressed in blue gingham carrying my little dog.

Whoever the target and whatever the reason - I think we have clearly established that there is SOME tendency on the part of GAY MEN to choose, idolize and WORSHIP certain FEMALE celebrities.

I just don't think it's correct to say that Judy Garland has been reduced to a mere punchline.

as Dova65 said "I think we all need to be careful when making blanket statements about the gay community's likes and dislikes."

And I have to get back to work and stop ranting on this blog...

Anonymous said...

I am sure that you didn't intend it to be but I have to say I just find your use of the word feather dusters to be offensive. I know it is cute when people talk about "their housecleaners" but this is too much.

FrancesSpencer said...

Wow some of you guys are taking this too far. This is just an opinion of taste. Let's respect it and move on. We've all said some things that can be taken in the wrong way. You know that it was an attempt at humor and not to be taken personally. Everybody loves an overcoming adversity story and what they do when it is overcome and they screw it up. That's what all of these icons (gay or straight) have in common.

Baylor said...

Excellent, excellent, excellent. I totally understand where you guys are coming from, only I'm going to take it another generation further: I don't think I (or any of my generation) have the Madonna gene.

But let me take things back to the Judy issue: I'm a 20 year old film student. I love old classic Hollywood stuff, and while I do appreciate Judy Garland as a performer, I don't much care for her. Also, I. can't. stand. The Wizard of Oz. That's right. I said it.

She's a pretty awesome performer, but I think she had contemporaries who were more talented -- maybe not better singers, but certainly more endearing and entertaining screen personalities. Fred and Ginger come immediately to mind. Maybe it really is a generational thing, because, honestly, I never understood the big gay cult of Dorothy.

But like I said before, I also think we're past what some people here have referred to as "the age of Madonna." Not just because I think Madonna is pretty much over (I know I'm likely to get killed for that sacrelidge), but because I really don't think that the young generation of gay men feel the need to use women as representations of themselves. I never really felt the draw to Madonna that sterotypically comes with And I think this has a lot to do with the GayBoys' argument about how gay iconogrophy gets tangled up with feminism.

Maybe because for my generation, the closet doors have been flung (relatively) wide open, we don't have to look to "female icons" to find "gay icons." The truth is, of the "pantheon" of gay icons mentioned by personette, I find myself especially drawn to none of them.

Sure, they're pretty great performers: Bette's a great stage presense. Cher's got a hell of a sense of theatricality. Liza... actually there's nothing appealing about Liza. I'd say that of these "gay goddesses," the one I like the most is Streisand, but even then, it's nothing even bordering on worship.

But I think we're progressing past it. I think that for my generation, there's so much more visibility and representation out there that we don't need to look to women to find reflections of ourselves.

Of course, if some musical theatre major with a Joan Crawford shrine in his dorm room wants to swoop in and contradict me, then I'll withdraw my comments. (All but the Wizard of Oz one. Sorry folks, but it just don't work on me.)

thombeau said...

Basically, people---gay, straight, or otherwise---respond to what resonates with them. There is no good or bad in this matter, no right or wrong. T&L have written a fun blog expressing their thoughts...no one's identity is being threatened. So let's all take a disco nap and move on!

personette said...

Look, francesspencer - I take SERIOUS offense to you denigrating the names of both Frances Farmer and Spencer Tracy with your moniker. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!

redheadgirl said...

Sorry T&L, I beg to differ on this one. There wouldn't be a Madonna without narcissism (not feminism)!!

Anonymous said...

Great great material as usual, and I find myself laughing and getting angry at comments at the same time - how judy perhaps, but then again, I've seen Madonna like that in interviews.

I don't know, I am confused because it isn't just about replacing Judy by Madonna, is it? I think it's the sense that something authentic, that "vulnerablity" or better yet, "hot mess" that is Judy, is replaced by the referant, the costume, the calculated set of signs with no real emotions that is Madonna INC.

I think Judy didn't have a model to consider, that's why she was the hot mess trying to figure out on her feet, while Madonna was VERY aware and -there's that word again, calculating - her earlier models and so on. I don't know if that is really empowerment. She just wore the costume well, and hey, that counts!

Judy, bless her, is a bridge between the Bettes, Joans and Hollywood world where vaudeville paint smelled still fresh, and the Jackie O world where she just wouldn't have a clue really what to do there anyway.

Vulnerability just really didn't have a place in the 80s when Madonna showed up. Nor did Garland's victim-pathos fit either, fine.

BUT, looking today, I don't feel Madonna rose above victimhood either, and became a victim to the spiralling media circus she thought she would lead forever.

So I don't feel the two are at odds in a way, one pre- and one post- anything, I just think you two don't have that "gene", which is really fine, as your blog is wonderful.

But please, a word of friendly, fan advice - give the Laura Bennet cult a rest...

Gorgeous Things said...

Suzanne said...
"99.999% of the men in my life are gay. Not one of them has a thing for Judy. I almost thought for a while it was a gay urban legend."

None of my friends who are gay have the Judy gene. Several have the Cher gene, and back in the 80s a bunch had the Boy George RNA. I know several with the Barbra gene, but that seems to be recessive these days.

Anonymous said...

A friend of mine told me once that it is rumored that Judy Garland died while sitting on the toilet.

I am not sure who originally said this but the quote is basically:

"Judy Garland died while sitting on the toilet. She spent all her life trying to get over that rainbow and then died on the pot"

Michael said...

I don't know how old you two are--but I'm guessing from the photos I've seen, you're not younger than me. I'm 38. You can try to reason all the pre/post feminism mumbo jumbo you want. What it comes down to is talent and taste in my book. Garland had both, Madonna has niether.

If age or generation has anything to do with it, chalk it up to the ever increasing dumbing down of America. People can't recognize talent it it hits them over the head these days. We're all so easily taken in by electronically manipulated vocals on a slick soundtrack and glitzy, over the top production values. Judy didn't need that crap--she had talent.

personette said...

give the laura bennett cult a rest?

FrancesSpencer said...

Thank you, Personette. That made me smile. Actually, Frances Spencer is Princess Diana's middle and last maiden name. Well, that's how I conjured it. Really didn't mean to offend all of the Spencer Tracy and Frances Farmer fans out there:)

Kenneth Hill said...

PRBoys -- I shed a quiet tear knowing that some strange freak of nature resulted in you not getting the Judy gene. I guess this just goes to prove that no one is perfect -- not even my dear PRBoys!

BTW, If anyone cares to skip over to my blog for half a second, I wrote about 'The Day Judy Garland Outed Me.' xoxo Kenneth

http://journals.aol.com/gayesteditorever/WorthRepeating/entries/2007/01/09/the-day-judy-garland-outed-me/595

Red Seven said...

Baylor: "... actually there's nothing appealing about Liza."

If you really are a film student, you should see Cabaret. Flat out amazing performance.

chicksinger said...

Chiming back in WAY late regarding TheGayBoys' reply to my post about pre-/post-feminism. I just want to say that I know you didn't coin the term, and I apologize for using your completely awesome blog as a place to vent my frustration with society at large. It's just that I don't regard feminism as an event, such as Stonewall, which can be used to neatly define one era against another. Feminism is a movement that has come in waves for over a century now*, and will keep on coming.

And I'm still with redheadgirl and linda merrill when it comes to Madonna and feminism. But 'nuff said on that one.

That's all. Carry on!

*as any good female movement should :)

BigAssBelle said...

kenneth hill, you precious thing, you. i just read your judy post and found it so sweet and poignant. what a little gay angel you were in your too cool '70s room.

Anonymous said...

I will tell you what I found harsh - scrolling down from your latest entry on Judy, with all those wonderful images, to see Posh...

Anonymous said...

From latest Musto - It fits?

"Rupert Everett|s comes away with appreciative (if unblinking) appraisals of his co-stars—particularly self-possessed enigmas like MADONNA, SHARON STONE, and FAYE DUNAWAY. Everett assured me that in 50 years, people researching those stars "are not going to find anything. There's no character in any of these people. Obviously they have characters—amazing characters. They're the most extraordinary beings of all. They've conquered a man's world and have become men in women's clothing."

Fin De Fichier said...

I find these responses fascinating. Thanks to the powers of browser technology I can search all 67 of them to see that nobody invoked "Camp". (in the Sontag sense) I don't have the "Judy gene" but respect her iconic position in the pantheon of historical queerness. DJD, it is precisely BECAUSE she is "someone too real, too emotionally honest to be a star" that she holds that position. That authenticity is what drew an older generation of gay men towards her. I agree there's probably an American Studies thesis here, but it would do well to encompass the reactions to the PG post and what they mean with respect to contemporary gay hermeneutics.

As much out of curiosity for old television as for her, I rented the DVD of her ill-fated prime time show from Netflix. Her performance of Old Man River was bristling with energy and artistic mastery - unforgettable. I think part of the spectacle of her personae was that someone with such frailty could "pull it together" to such effect - once in a while. Thank goodness the quad tapes survived all these years.

Anonymous said...

The thing about Madonna is, she's been a lot of things, but she has never been a hot mess. She's always known exactly what she was doing.

Anne

Edgyguy said...

It's a bitch being born on the cusp of a generational divide; I'm not Judy, yet I'm not really Barbra, either. I'm not Marilyn and not really Madonna. Maybe we can save all the angst and just assign a gay icon at birth.

O.B.: Slap! "You have been assigned Judy"

I always thought I really didn't have that gay iconography gene.... that is until at last count I found in my possession some 25 plus Cleo Laine CD's.

Guilty.

J.T.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the generational divide theory. Judy's voice embodied a very real sense of fear and subjugation, that I am sure was all-too-familiar for gays and lesbians of the pre-Stonewall era. Fast forward to Madonna in the the eighties and you get a performance that above all celebrates living by your own rules, which was very much more the mode of thought for late twentieth century gay-rights activism. I guess it's all about what you grew up with after all...